Buen Vivir - Neue Töne aus Lateinamerika mit Grupo Sal und Alberto Acosta

Wo:

To the Working Group:

After I have red the three stirring papers, I had the following thoughts and expectations for our diskussion within the working group
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1. Analysis:
After more than 10 years editor of Der kritische Agrarbericht (the Critical Agricultural Report) in Germany and more than 10 years managing in the AgrarBündnis (agricultural alliance) I know most of the problems, that are mentioned by the stitting papers. I assume that others who are not yet within the movement for such a long time, come to Leipzig in the conviction that something has to change, too. Therefore, the analysis of the problems in the papers is very helpful. But it should not take too much time of our diskussion.

2. Degrowth and other concepts
In the papers concepts emerge that have already been with us for some time: sustainability, multi-functionality or food sovereignty.
The degrowth debate goes in a similar direction as much of what we have already discussed. But we should separate carefully! Otherwise we would loose the opportunities offered by the degrowth perspective.
My interest is NOT a continuation of the previous discussion of these concepts under a new heading. My question is: "What is the contribution of a degrowth concept for the solution of the problems"?

3. Growth or degrowth? Trees grow! But not in the sky! (free translation of a German proverb)
Therefore in the beginning I would like to discuss a self-critical question: What should and what should not grow?
Growth as a natural phenomenon: In agriculture the question of growth and degrowth arises in a special way. We need to eat more! For real! The basic principle of every life and agriculture is growing. We are glad, when plants and animals grow, don’t we? In agriculture it is not a question of growth or no growth, but of what kind of growth. And, of course, it includes decay and circulation also.
For small farmers, we wish well more growth, but not in agribusiness. With food sovereignty we want to achieve the growth of local markets, don’t we? Organic farming should spread, the oil-based agriculture not.
At this point I expect more clarity! Does dewgroth just means fewer use of resources, but more input of labour?
We have to make this clear! If we do not answer these questions, it is difficult to discuss about degrwoth outside our own movement.
The growth of organic farming and the emerging of a organic industry is a good example, where success stories and the "being captured" within traditional development structures are very close to each.
The question of power is posed in all three papers. Yes, we have have zto discuss it. But unfortunately it is not new at all. Yes, we need to stay tuned. Also on the issues of grassroots movement, transformation, impact on the prevailing distribution of power. But this question always concerns us. Therfore I am not sure, weather or not it should be one of the main topics.

4 Key Questions
For me the key points in the three papers are the following:
o Agroecology production methods: solar-based production methods against oil-based methods; circuits against linear systems, etc
o Labour: how can it be promoted (in principle)? What organizational structures are helpful?
o Land: How can we remove it from the increasing pressure of global economy and the financial economy?

For this working group, I expect concrete indications on how to implement the idea of "degrowth" in practical tools, which then everyone could use in his own political life.

For all of these questions it is important, that the concepts of the "south" and "north" must look completely different. Looking at the discussion in Germany I currently have the feeling that the "World Agriculture Report" (IAASTD) has been strengthened our discussion, but the solutions presented are mailny for the global south.

I look forward to the working group.

Frieder Thomas

An die Arbeitsgruppe:

Nachdem ich die drei stirring papers gelesen habe, sind mir folgende Gedanken zu meinen Erwartungen an die Arbeitsgruppe gekommen
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1. Analyse:
Nach mehr als 10 Jahren Redakteur des Kritischen Agrarberichts und mehr als 10 Jahren Geschäftsführer im Agrarbündnis in Deutschland ist für mich persönlich die Analyse der Problematik, auf die auch die Papiere eingehen, bekannt. Ich gehe davon aus, dass auch andere, die noch nicht so lange dabei sind, in der Überzeugung nach Leipzig kommen, dass sich etwas ändern muss. Daher ist die Analyse der Probleme in den Papieren hilfreich. Sie sollte unsere Debatte aber nicht übermäßig in Anspruch nehmen.

2. Degrowth und andere Konzepte
In den Papieren tauchen viele Konzepte, die uns bisher begleitet haben auf: Nachhaltigkeit, Multifunktionalität oder Ernährungssouveränität.
Die Degrowth-Debatte geht in eine ähnliche Richtung wie vieles, was wir bisher schon diskutiert haben. Aber wir sollten sorgfältig trennen! Sonst vergeben wir Chancen, die uns die degrowth-Perspektive bietet.
Mein Interesse ist NICHT die Fortführung der bisherigen Diskussion dieser Konzepte unter einer neuen Überschrift. Meine Frage ist: „Welchen Beitrag leistet ein degrowth-Konzept für die Lösung der Probleme“?

3. Wachstum oder Degrowth: Bäume wachsen! Aber nicht in den Himmel! (freie Übersetzung eines deutschen Sprichworts)
Daher steht für mich am Anfang auch eine selbstkritische Frage: Was soll denn wachsen und was soll nicht wachsen? In der Landwirtschaft stellt sich stellt sich das Thema von Wachstum und degrowth auf eine besondere Weise. Wir brauchen mehr zu essen! Wirklich! Das Grundprinzip jedes Lebens und der Landwirtschaft ist Wachstum. Wir freuen uns alle, wenn Pflanzen und Tiere wachsen, oder nicht? Es geht in der Landwirtschaft ja nicht um das ob, sondern um das wie. Und natürlich gehören Zerfall und Kreislauf auch dazu.
Bei den Kleinbauern wünsche wir uns durchaus mehr Wachstum, aber nicht beim Agrobusiness.
Mit Ernährungssouveränität möchten wir das Wachstum lokaler Märkte erreichen, oder nicht?
Der ökologische Landbau soll sich ausbreiten, die ölbasierte Landwirtschaft nicht.
An dieser Stelle erwarte ich mir mehr Klarheit! Heißt dewgroth weniger Ressourcen, aber Wachstum bei der Arbeit? Dann müssen wir das deutlich machen!
Wenn wir diese Fragen nicht klären, wird es schwer zu diskutieren.
Das Wachstum des Ökologischen Landbaus ist dabei ein schönes Beispiel dafür, wo Erfolgsgeschichten und das „gefangen sein“ in Wachstumsstrukturen sehr eng beieinander liegen.
Die Machtfrage wird in allen drei Papieren gestellt. Ja, sie muss gestellt werden. Aber sie ist leider überhaupt nicht neu. Ja, wir müssen dran bleiben. Auch an den Fragen von Basisbewegung, Transformation, Einfluss auf die herrschende Machtverteilung. Aber diese Frage beschäftigt uns ja immer.

4. Zentrale Fragen
Für mich sind die zentralen Punkte in den drei Papieren
o Agrarökologie: solargestützte Produktionsmethoden gegen ölgestützte Methoden;
Kreisläufe gegen lineare Systeme, etc
o Arbeit: wie kann man sie fördern (grundsätzlich)? Welche Organisationsstrukturen sind hilfreich?
o Land: Wie kann man es herausnehmen aus dem zunehmenden Druck der globalen Ökonomie und der Finanzwirtschaft
Für diese Arbeitsgruppe erwarte ich mir konkrete Hinweise darauf, wie man die Idee des „degrowth“ in praktische Instrumente umsetzen kann, die dann jeder auf seine Weise in die politischen Alltag einbringt.
Bei all diesen Fragen ist zu beachten, dass Konzepte für den „Süden“ und den „Norden“ völlig unterschiedlich aussehen müssen. Für Deutschland habe ich derzeit das Gefühl, dass der „Weltagrarbericht“ zwar unsere Diskussion gestärkt hat, dass dort aber vor allem Lösungen für den globalen Süden drin stehen.

Ich freue mich auf die Arbeitsgruppe.

Frieder Thomas

Wo:
May I suggest that collective action for degrowth needn't -- and probably shouldn't -- only include activism directed toward degrowth per se. In most places, there are quite a number of other things that have to change in order for degrowth to be implemented. (To clarify: I'm speaking in this post mainly about implementing new public policies, in contrast to private initiatives such as voluntary simplicity.) 
For example, where I live, there are such diverse needs as (i) improving labor arrangements and support systems (day care, etc.) so that working people will find it easier to raise families, (ii) avoiding or even pulling out of certain free trade agreements, and (iii) making the electoral system more democratic. The coalitions supporting each of these propositions will often be quite different, even though there may be some overlaps. The constituencies who must be persuaded in order to change them will also often be different -- sometimes citizens, sometimes employers, sometimes bureaucrats, sometimes politicians, sometimes a mix of these and others. 
When you target degrowth directly, you are often aiming only for an overlap constituency among citizens. But you can't make degrowth more than a slogan unless you get these local, heterogeneous obstacles out of the way. That goes for private initiatives, too: they may have little or no effect if public policy is pointed in the opposite direction.
So among the tasks for activists are (i) identifying these roadblock policies, and (ii) creating an action plan for removing them. My own point of departure in approaching these issues is that degrowth is most likely to be implementable at a country-by-country level, and that the roadblocks will vary a lot according to a country's specific situation. I know little enough about Europe to be at best agnostic about the chances for success of a Europe-wide movement; to my outsider's eyes, Germany, Greece and Bulgaria, for example, seem to be quite differently situated. But obviously, the more transnational the level at which you want to implement degrowth, the greater the number and complexity of the particular obstacles you need to assess and remove. 
Wo:
Apropos of this interesting stirring paper:
1. The paper includes an excellent warning about how degrowth is capable of being hijacked by conservatives or worse. However, this is not just Miegel, but can be seen across multiple strands of the literature, including Alain de Benoist in France (years before Miegel), Giuseppe Giaccio in Italy (strongly influenced by de Benoist) and Robert & Edward Skidelsky in the UK (favoring Christian spirituality like Miegel, but also a melange of virtue ethics and anti-Marcuse rants).   
2. Not so prominent in the paper: Democracy is an issue not only for a postgrowth society (PGS), but for how you get there from here. For example, if only rich people can get elected in your country, or if corporations are accorded human rights there, is it realistic to expect a "serene" transition to a PGS at all?
3. Is it reasonable to treat democracy monolithically, or does it mean different things in different cultures? Personally, I'm inclined to be not so relativist in my opinion of what constitutes democracy. But different cultures do have different ideas: e.g., many people inside and outside Japan believe it is a democracy, even though it's a very far cry away from, say, Germany, which by global standards has an outstanding constitution and constitutional court, and superior electoral systems.
4. A synthesis of points 2 and 3 is that there will be different political obstacles to overcome on the path to a PGS in different countries. Possibly, too, there will be different ideas of what is an acceptable level of democracy if and when a PGS were to be achieved. For example, while something called "radical ecological democracy" would almost certainly be a tough sell in Japan,  borrowing constitutional innovations from Germany might be more attractive, since Japan's civil code is already based on the Wilhelmine BGB.
5. Finally, there is a danger, exacerbated by the incursion of "governance" notions into the political sphere, but also by Rawlsian idealism, of believing democracy is some sort of efficient machine if you can just set up the rules correctly. A stimulating contrary point of view comes from the Discorsi of Machiavelli, very nicely expanded on in John P. McCormick's "Machiavellian Democracy" (Cambridge UP 2011), about how democracy comes of conflict -- especially of the rich and poor, through institutions representing their respective interests. (This is a point that might resonate even more today than a few years ago, thanks to Prof. Piketty.) Or more generally, as put by whoever wrote the back-cover blurb to Philippe Godard and Pascal Pilon's  « Les démocraties : De la Grèce antique à nos jours » (2008): "loin d'être une évidence, la démocratie représente toujours un combat."
Wo:

Hi All,

My name is Ali and I will be facilitating the GAP process for this group on Urban Transformation.

I just thought I would start some discussion after reading the stirring papers - please feel free to take these into separate discussion posts if it makes it easier and of course start your own discussions!

1. Can cities ever really be "sustainable"?

Whilst there are arguments in favour of cities in terms of more efficient use of resources - some might argue that cities are inherently unsustainable as they always rely on the extraction of resources from other (rural) areas. This might link to the stirring paper on infrastructures, when it asks "Is it a valid aim of degrowth
supporters to always try and enable society to do things less damagingly, or is there a threshold of unacceptability, where less bad is simply not good enough?"

2. Actually existing alternatives

The same stirring paper suggests that people (or at least individuals) have little ability "to create infrastructure or infrastructure for themselves; they just make use of the existing infrastructures which are in place. People also have very little control over where certain activities take place – schools, shops, workplaces, sports and entertainment opportunities all have to fit into the landscape".

To me this is being challenged now by practices or movements such as squatting and social centres, which leads me to ask: what other already existing alternatives exist in terms of infrastructure (or urban transformation more broadly)?

3. Conflicts and alliances with agriculture

Aisde from rooftops mentioned in the stirring paper - space could be a major issue for urban agriculture. From speaking to different groups in Cape Town - there is a potential for both conflict and cooperation between different groups - for example housing activists and small scale farming movements. Are there ways we can try to facilitate more cooperation between potentially conflicting groups when it comes to urban land use?

And finally - at present it will only be me that is facilitating this GAP group - but it is recommended (and I would certainly appreciate :) ) there being a co-moderator. So if anyone would like to volunteer to help facilitate just let me know and I can send you the handbook explaining the process.

Thanks, and I'm looking forward to taking part in this exciting process.

Ali

Wo:

Dear participants of the childhood working group and of the GAP process in general,

Despite our best attempts to find facilitators for all working groups, we haven't manage to find one for the Childhood working group. If you are familiar with the topic and have some experience in facilitation, please consider facilitating this group. You can either reply here or write to gap@degrowth.de.

Thank you for your support!

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